tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post1129409185142841390..comments2023-06-15T05:02:07.807-05:00Comments on Java Jesus: Women! Teaching in Your Church! Call the Authorities!scotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06407035513346395310noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-21739891182250195002008-03-19T21:55:00.000-05:002008-03-19T21:55:00.000-05:00Ahhh...an interesting topic which I have enjoyed r...Ahhh...an interesting topic which I have enjoyed reading. Being a woman, and having grown up in a conservative church, I have struggled with this issue over the years. And my conclusion is much like the author's in that the older I get the more I don't know, which is different from the crud (I know I can use that word b/c I heard a preacher-man use it ) that was drilled into my head and I supposedly "knew" (at the age of 16 and 17). At any rate, I think these discussions are fun, as long as they are fun. Make sense? God has given us the Holy Spirit to move and speak within us as to how we read and interpret Scripture. He also made everything right at the cross, so us arguing to "make things right" only muddies the water (in my humble opinion). There are many hot topics like this one, which I choose to lean on grace and allow God to use all the people in my life (male and female) to minister to me. I don't see this particular issue as a salvation issue, so I consider it to be one of those things God put in our lives to exercise our brain muscles. It is good to struggle with these issues, I think. It is divisive to harp on this issue and use this issue to hurt others, which would include holding back those whom God calls.penguinsandladybugshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14826439322679619897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-15323020197743887922008-03-17T19:31:00.000-05:002008-03-17T19:31:00.000-05:00No strawberry fruity frappachinos here man! I'm st...No strawberry fruity frappachinos here man! I'm strickly a carmal mocha Latte or Frappachino guy. But mainly I'm just a plain old coffe man.<BR/><BR/>Interesting discussions you have here. I like it. I need to visit more often. <BR/><BR/>Now my wife on the other hand trys all those new Starbucks flavors. Echh.Mr. Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14011072363028174111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-88399017044369698302008-02-26T19:51:00.000-06:002008-02-26T19:51:00.000-06:00Context, Context, Context. Put Paul in 1st-Centur...Context, Context, Context. Put Paul in 1st-Century Judaism/Christianity. Paul said, "'I' do not permit...." This is his opinion, not an intended laying down of theology. I think that this lent to his cultural setting, which was oppressive to women. <BR/><BR/>I think it unlikely that Paul intended his readers to imitate him on this subject, but that is my opinion.Maccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05413760069667587640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-87470743288525616352008-02-26T14:43:00.000-06:002008-02-26T14:43:00.000-06:00This reminds me of one of my favorite verses of sc...This reminds me of one of my favorite verses of scripture:<BR/>"Cretan are always liars, evil brutes, and lazy gluttons" (Titus 1:12). Here is a definitive statement that NObody will embrace as Truth, Not even Paul, nor the Cretan whom Paul was quoting. <BR/><BR/>This kind of thing does not threaten biblical inerrancy at all. But it does challenge what we mean when we talk about it.Joe Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15385756442506439825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-9335942832250465272008-02-26T10:11:00.000-06:002008-02-26T10:11:00.000-06:00no, you're not whacked. I would say that too, but ...no, you're not whacked. I would say that too, but I have a lot resting on the outcome of this debate.<BR/><BR/>Because we know women in the Bible did hold authority and there were prophetesses, we essentially <I>have</I> to conclude these passages are church-specific and can (if we do enough research) be explained away.<BR/><BR/>So now, looking at the rest of the Bible can any case <I>at all</I> be made for women not having an exactly equal opportunity to lead in the church?Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06269915741639859163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-84222436780710862582008-02-24T17:28:00.000-06:002008-02-24T17:28:00.000-06:00Yes, it may seems so, Bethie-Dee. Except that it i...Yes, it may seems so, Bethie-Dee. Except that it is abundantly clear from Paul's own writings that women DID speak, and act, and participate, even within his own sphere of authority. And this is what we refer to as an interpretive problem. We can solve the problem by saying that these women were not women at all, but men with girls' names. Simple. Effective. Conservative. And dumb. But the alternative is either a contextual interpretation (within an opaque context), or a fallible scripture. It is no wonder that most Christians have opted for a separate peace: they just ignore the issue for lack of a clear conclusion. I tend to think that's actually a pretty good plan. <BR/>Am I whacked?Joe Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15385756442506439825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-79416592741322269522008-02-24T00:42:00.000-06:002008-02-24T00:42:00.000-06:00ok - just a quick thought, but I don't know that t...ok - just a quick thought, but I don't know that these passages are ones we can apply moderately. Paul doesn't leave an option for a "women can do everything but be the main pastor." Either we explain away the whole passage as a culture/church specific command, or we can do what the text says. It seems to me like all or nothing. A Biblical argument cannot be made from a moderate 'women can do many things but not all' stance because the passage must either be obeyed today, or it doesn't apply.Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06269915741639859163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-67080715238980125172008-02-23T11:35:00.000-06:002008-02-23T11:35:00.000-06:00Welcome to the coffeehouse, Mr E. May I offer you ...Welcome to the coffeehouse, Mr E. May I offer you an espresso? (Or maybe a strawberry mocha frappucino, seeing as how you are from TX)Joe Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15385756442506439825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-68043459752226058022008-02-23T09:41:00.000-06:002008-02-23T09:41:00.000-06:00I also grew up the strict churches that women coul...I also grew up the strict churches that women could only teach males up to abt. Jr. High age. They could also teach other groups of women and be on church staff, but not in a leadership role. Women could also co-teach a Bible study but they would have to "submit" to what their husband or male group leader said. <BR/><BR/>There were many women listed as being very active church members or possibly church leaders in the Bible. <BR/><BR/>I think that women in the church, just like women in marriage, would gladly submit some of their authority in regards to a male who is fullfilling his Godly role as a leader of the Church. But since many men have been neglecting their duties as leaders, some women have taken it upon themselves to step up. <BR/><BR/>Although I'm not totally oppossed to women in pastor or preacher roles, because of my upbringing, it still makes me feel a little uncomfortable. My wife does have an Aunt who is a pastor of her church (The Diciples of Christ.)Mr. Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14011072363028174111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-20730080085489603102008-02-22T09:16:00.000-06:002008-02-22T09:16:00.000-06:00Speaking of which, this discussion would be a lot ...Speaking of which, this discussion would be a lot more interesting if more women were speaking up. I've always been curious about many women's opinions of this doctrine and text.<BR/><BR/>They could man-ize their names on the blog, of course. Kendrus, Peejus, Sharlus...scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06407035513346395310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-79011014238551151452008-02-22T06:20:00.000-06:002008-02-22T06:20:00.000-06:00This is the OTHER Anonymous. The whisker-chinned, ...This is the OTHER Anonymous. The whisker-chinned, troglodite Male one. A Republican of Republican's, circumcised the 8th day.<BR/><BR/>I say it is not proper for Bethany to post comments here, since she is a (whisper) woman. Indeed, I think I can already feel myself succumbing to her womanly wiles.<BR/><BR/>Instead I think she should be allowed to comment only under a masculine pseudonym, sort of like a "doctrinal burka" to keep us all from stumbling. Perhaps the pen name Anonymus, as it has a nice, masculine, biblical sound.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-49482499585530240712008-02-22T05:57:00.000-06:002008-02-22T05:57:00.000-06:00This is Anonymous, here. i'd like to come clea, gu...This is Anonymous, here. i'd like to come clea, guys. I am actualy not a random blog-surfer, I am actually your own beloved Bethany. That's right, yours truly. I...I just had to come clean.<BR/><BR/>Whew, I feel SO much better!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-56076785222039731392008-02-22T05:55:00.000-06:002008-02-22T05:55:00.000-06:00Are too, are too! Na-na-nana-na!Are too, are too! Na-na-nana-na!Joe Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15385756442506439825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-11630521487233513662008-02-21T09:25:00.000-06:002008-02-21T09:25:00.000-06:00What I find slightly odd about so many modern-day ...What I find slightly odd about so many modern-day churches is that they just find a happy medium... Women are allowed to TALK, of course, they just can't teach adult men. So, it's not like they have to be quiet (that would be archaic!). They just, you know, can't teach or have "authority" over men. Whatever that means.<BR/><BR/>Some of the commentaries I see seem to relate the "authority" part to the role of men and women in the family -- the man being the head of the household. But, some <A HREF="http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=1ti&chapter=2&verse=12#1Ti2_12" REL="nofollow">commentaries also talk</A> about Roman laws of the day -- women could not do things that belong to man as his particular function. Such as hold public office, be judges, act in cases, or even ask questions in public assemblies. So, much of that issue seems to be particular to that <I>time period</I>.<BR/><BR/>But then Paul has to go on and confuse the whole issue with the "Adam was first formed, then Eve" discussion. Some of the same commentaries write some very silly things about how, by nature of being formed first, men should have pre-eminence and be able to live a more public life than women. And that argument seems like quite a stretch to me.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and hi, Bethany. She that is not anonymous.scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06407035513346395310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-24910110429619485982008-02-21T08:45:00.000-06:002008-02-21T08:45:00.000-06:00I'm not anonymous, I'm Bethany!I'm not anonymous, I'm Bethany!Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06269915741639859163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-25440047797890330992008-02-21T08:09:00.000-06:002008-02-21T08:09:00.000-06:00Indeed, anonymous Bethie. Which is exactly what ma...Indeed, anonymous Bethie. Which is exactly what makes so many of us look again and try to square it up. These words of Paul do not make much sense even forensically, let alone in practice. <BR/><BR/>So we look for a simple key that reconciles the "gramma" with the "pneuma".<BR/><BR/>"We serve in the new way of the pneuma, not in the old way of the gramma." (Ro 7:6) <BR/><BR/>"Those who are led by the pnuema of God, they are the sons of God." (Ro 8:14)<BR/><BR/>"It is the pneuma who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are pneuma and are zoe." (Jn 6:63)Joe Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15385756442506439825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-45035798711295391962008-02-20T22:35:00.000-06:002008-02-20T22:35:00.000-06:00Finally Feminist by John Stackhouse is a great boo...<I>Finally Feminist</I> by John Stackhouse is a great book on this topic. He acknowledges the other side's arguments - which is rare.<BR/><BR/>Regardless of whether Eve fell first, wasn't Christ's work to <I>undo</I> the damage of the fall?<BR/><BR/>Isn't it significant that Paul's writings have also been used to defend <I>slavery</I>? His goal was not to radically overthrow social norms, whether they were correct or not.<BR/><BR/>Are the verses <I>descriptive</I> or <I>prescriptive</I>? I've heard the word "permit" in 1 Timothy is conditional, like we get "permit"s to build houses, it was specific to their situation. And authority - isn't the role of a pastor that of a servant?<BR/><BR/>and, well... as a person who cares about where the church is headed, if I felt compelled to say something, something I'm not hearing from pastors or elders, something that desperately needs to be said, would one of you tell me to sit down? Am I limited to teaching children? Because I don't like making crafts, and I find it hard to believe that an interpretation could trump a calling.Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06269915741639859163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-28340522435661587532008-02-20T22:32:00.000-06:002008-02-20T22:32:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06269915741639859163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-91074517961261453992008-02-20T21:28:00.000-06:002008-02-20T21:28:00.000-06:00We're pleased to have Tony Myles among us. Welcome...We're pleased to have Tony Myles among us. Welcome, pontificatus maximus. <BR/><BR/>I'll confess I'm straining to make that connection between the winsome TJ-TM discussion and this one, except that in either case, theology is fun.<BR/><BR/>So slap me good and make me see it. Make me SEE!<BR/><BR/>Then I'll throw down a dose of postmodern perspectivalism that'll have Brian McLaren crying "Heresy!"Joe Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15385756442506439825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-56813615882298675772008-02-20T20:24:00.000-06:002008-02-20T20:24:00.000-06:00An interesting discussion was once had on this... ...An interesting discussion was once had on this... I was a part of it and transcribed it - read it <A HREF="http://dontcallmeveronica.blogspot.com/2005/10/nywc-retrospective-late-night-options_23.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>. <BR/><BR/>As you'll note, the discussion is often not as valuable as knowing why you're having the discussion to begin with.tonymyleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11396458619687708153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-28267776495191606942008-02-20T08:52:00.000-06:002008-02-20T08:52:00.000-06:00How should I know what questions to ask? I'm as st...How should I know what questions to ask? I'm as stumped as anyone!<BR/><BR/>You know, I want the bible to be utterly airtight, and I always operate on the belief that it is. <BR/><BR/>But we must remember that the reality and integrity of God does not rest upon the Bible. The virtue of the Bible rests upon the reality and integrity of God. <BR/><BR/>In short, the Word is powerful because of who said it, and because of what it says. The Bible dod not speak God into existence, after all. Question #1 may be a slippery slope, but Jesus Christ is a firm foundation.Joe Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15385756442506439825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-90687008706673436032008-02-20T07:58:00.000-06:002008-02-20T07:58:00.000-06:00So, Joe, which questions SHOULD we be asking? Do w...So, Joe, which questions SHOULD we be asking? Do we suspend our "rules" for this one? The New Testament examples of women in leadership are always given in response to this argument, so I wonder how the two ideas meld together -- or if they even CAN meld together. Were those women not teaching men?<BR/><BR/>The questions that Anonymous asks are worth asking... but #1 is more of a slippery slope. Anywhere personal opinion is offered in the Bible, it's pretty blatantly labelled as such (and "personal opinion" in the Bible is pretty rare, isn't it?). If we are free to label many of Paul's writings as "personal opinion," that seems to give people the ability to throw out most of the New Testament.scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06407035513346395310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-69112131705009211112008-02-19T15:03:00.000-06:002008-02-19T15:03:00.000-06:00A great little book on the subject, if you can fin...A great little book on the subject, if you can find a copy, is "Who Says Women Can't Teach?" by Charles Trombley. I'll bet you can guess his conclusion. But it is actually very well researched and intellectually acute and honest. Published by Logos, 1985.Joe Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15385756442506439825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-47274393896983692962008-02-19T14:58:00.000-06:002008-02-19T14:58:00.000-06:00This is a dizzying subject. On the one hand there ...This is a dizzying subject. On the one hand there are buckets of evidence that not only were women allowed to speak in church, they were allowed to speak by Paul. In fact, the scriptural and archeological evidence is strong that women also served as deacons and elders. GASP!<BR/><BR/>The only vexing thing for me is that Paul actually gives a reason why women should not teach which points to a general female unfitness: "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 tim 2:14)<BR/><BR/>This, for me, raises the strongest challenge in the whole bible to our understanding of the nature of scripture and of apostolic authority. When you have to do all kinds of cognitive acrobatics in order to explain how something is really consistent, even though it appears inconsistent, it's time to back up and examine whether you are asking the right questions to begin with. This is one of the few scriptural problems that makes me want to suspend the rules of logic!Joe Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15385756442506439825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4294512992029030179.post-68627955668470250902008-02-19T14:39:00.000-06:002008-02-19T14:39:00.000-06:00Uh-oh. Someone's done gone and let a GIRRL in here...Uh-oh. Someone's done gone and let a GIRRL in here!<BR/><BR/>Well, I'm agin' it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com